Strong Atheism: A Philosophical Justification

2006-09-03 [Fizban]: never have been created...the inanimate particles ingested by the mother-creator were never converged and formed for the purpose of her animation.

to have not ever come into being...

2006-09-03 [Franc28]: That's impossible.

2006-09-03 [ceridwen]: It's only impossible because your mind can't grasp it. Yes, logically you're right. But logic as we know it isn't always truth.

2006-09-03 [Cliché]: She meant I should never have been conceived. She didn't wish me dead, that wouldn't be christian of her, she just said I was made in a way that should not have happened.

2006-09-03 [Franc28]: "logic as we know it isn't always truth"

Imagine me rolling my eyes vigorously here.

2006-09-03 [ceridwen]: Oh, I don't blame you. I roll my eyes at myself quite often. Really... I make no sense. At least I can admit to it and embrace it. >.<

2006-09-03 [Dil*]: Something that is logical is something that takes into account all variables in a given situation. 

but I don't think that something logical is always equatable to truth.

2006-09-04 [Fizban]: indeed, because what Dil left out that I feel is needed in that sentence would be

Something that is logical is something that takes into account all known variables in a given situation.

which is what makes us human.

2006-09-04 [Dil*]: I have no reason to believe I have a soul. But my ego makes up for one ;)

2006-09-05 [Cliché]: Pah, I have no soul. No one does. Fizzy, if you were talking to me then I should explain, I am a test-tube baby, hence the "shouldn't be born" thing. ^.^

2006-09-05 [Franc28]: I don't have a soul, but I seem to be doing fine just with a brain and a mind.

2006-09-05 [Fizban]: I am well aware athat your a test-tube baby Cliche...I have been told stories of idiotic christians outsting you before hand...oys heh.

Well, I believe I do have a soul...and as a transcendental would say, my proof is intuission...XD.

2006-09-05 [Cliché]: Oh yeah. I forget who I talk to. Nevermind me.

2006-09-05 [Franc28]: Perhaps your proof is "intuission", but what about intuition?

2006-09-05 [Fizban]: listen here buddy...>_><_<

I really have nothing else to say other then a bunch of excuses as to why I was so careless as to spell intiuition with not only one, but 2 s's...lol.

2006-09-05 [Franc28]: See, that's what happens when you try to transcend the english language.

2006-09-07 [Dil*]: lmao.

2006-09-13 [Trist]: wow, so much information! i read any small part and think you are a genius (i read the whole thing and think you are going overboard. thas a friggin lot, dude)

2006-09-13 [Fizban]: overboard, not on this topic, you have to be this insane or else no one will listen...

2006-09-14 [Dil*]: huh? this stuff isn't overboard, try reading the stuff on www.strongatheism.net (my shit is child's play)

2006-10-01 [Tickle Me Emo]: I love your extensive arguments, Dil*, but you haven't touched on the area of the actual Bible itself. I mean, who wrote the thing? Where is/are its precise origin(s)? How metaphorical is it? There are so many different interpretations, and if God is omniscient and omnipotent, how come he hasn't made the correct interpretation apparent? Where if you take the Bible for face value, it is simply a collection of Tolkien-like bedtime stories; well-researched and designed to keep little children behaving. What if the Old Testament is simply a collection of the best literature from that time period, and is not necessarily true but still contains universal themes?

And what about Santa Clause. Omnibenevolent? He's certainly depicted as so. Omniscient? "He sees you when you're sleeping/he knows when you're awake." Omnipotent? The dude flys around the entire world and stops at everybody's house. If that isn't a sign of omnipotent powers, I don't know what is. And so it is we see the good side of Santa. But he also owns a sweatshop, overworks his animals, and enjoys distributing lumps of coal to sinners. Also, Santa is used to keep little tykes in line. Sound familiar? It appears that Santa may be an extended metaphor for God, and if this is the case, I have but one question: why are millions of people globally religiously following the equivalent of an old fat man in a red suit whose primary mode of transportation is an aerial sleigh drawn by a team of reindeer?

2006-10-01 [Fizban]: because I believe it is a weeding process (going on the idea that is true at all XD)

those who are destined to go to heaven, will get the right one, and go to the right place...or get close enough anyway.

ofcourse I think all denominations are bullshit, and it's more important to want to do the right thing, then it is to actually follow the idiotic rules and scriptures that I believe humans wrote anyway...

he offerns presents/heaven, and offers coal/hell. Thats so funny...I feel like he is more of a jesus type figure. Not god, but a representative of forms.

wow, thats so bad...heaven is just a means of controlling the masses, becuase morally enforcing the majority of people is easy when you tell them there actions determine the difference between eternal torment or bliss.

But it won't always work on the kiddies who don't understand that yet...so gotta make up a being comprable to him.

2006-10-01 [Dil*]: anne, whenever I talk about the bible, I point out it's full of mind-destroying jibberish and atrocity. That should be enough to turn enough people away from it. I mean, the old testament is lunacy to obey in this day and age. And the new testament doesn't neccessarily revoke the old one.

2006-10-01 [ceridwen]: "a collection of Tolkien-like bedtime stories" Oh, that made me chuckle. Only because it's the other way about, dearie. Tolkien was a Christian, and he wrote great parallels into his work.

2006-10-01 [ceridwen]: "I thought god 'created' us perfectly?" Geh... Once again, we're basically just trying to debunk Christianity, aren't we? It is possible that a god created us, but not prefectly. Then again, I prefer to think of god's in the Greek and Roman sense...

2006-10-01 [Dil*]: Yes. Because that is what we know. We've..gone through this already XD

2006-10-01 [ceridwen]: Heh. We have, haven't we? >.< This is "Shut the hell up and stop making an ass of yourself" time. xD

2006-10-01 [ceridwen]: Oooh... before I stop asking stupid questions: Does that mean my thought of a god is more plausible? I understand that it'd still be pretty improbable and such, but would it be more plausible to you than the xian god?

2006-10-01 [Dil*]: are you a deist?

2006-10-01 [ceridwen]: *le sigh* Nooo... Well possibly, but not quite yet...

2006-10-01 [Dil*]: agnostic theist?

2006-10-01 [ceridwen]: Yeah, pretty much that's the title I'm going with for now.

2006-10-01 [Dil*]: why do you believe in god?

2006-10-01 [ceridwen]: Why? Heh... I'm still trying to figure that one out myself. I think it might partly be because I was raised in an xian home and a church. It's quite hard to completely walk away from that. Sometimes I think it's just so I have someone to blame things on. I like having someone to direct my anger at. Maybe it was a crutch at one point, and may continue to be, but I'm OK with that. It seems highly likely that I can't believe in nothing... And since there is nothing else that at the moment in which I can have faith in, a god will do.

2006-10-01 [Dil*]: why is it necessary to have faith in something?

2006-10-01 [ceridwen]: For you it may not be... I'm not saying everyone must have faith (though, I believe they do), just me. I have to believe in something... I need sometihng to be angry, something to blame things on. So, I suppose it is a crutch for me. It's almost like a drug, but as long as it keeps me alive, I'll remain addicted.

2006-10-01 [Cliché]: Most people have faith in something/one, even an accomplished cynic like me. I have faith in science.

2006-10-01 [ceridwen]: Yeah... And I can't place my faith in science, so I put it in a divinity.

2006-10-01 [Dil*]: [Cliché], what definition of faith are you using to describe science? It doesn't take faith to believe in science. Faith is belief in something without any empirical evidence to back up said belief..science is the exact opposite.

2006-10-01 [Fizban]: it sounds like she is using it in the sense of trust.

which to me, you need anyway...because facts are more fluid then solid anyway, as empirical evidence changes from day to day, to year to decade to century and so forth...

2006-10-01 [Dil*]: It's not about 'science is right' all the time. It's about the method in which they persue truth.

2006-10-01 [Cliché]: Fizzy is right in one. I trust science is all.

2006-10-01 [Dil*]: I really don't like argueing over definitions..so it's vital to clear them up at the start of a disagreement.

2006-10-02 [Franc28]: There are not many ways to arrive at the truth. Only one- reason. All other methods must use the processes of reason, and thus, contradict themselves when they arrive at different results.

2006-10-02 [Fizban]: Humans.

You can give them the same input, same set of data, and have them both go through the same methods of reasoning and science...and still have them end up with different outputs entirely.

2006-10-02 [Cliché]: Face it, we're stupid creatures.

2006-10-02 [Fizban]: we are intelligent, and thus intellegence breeds more stupidity...becuase the smarter we are the more of a gradient for a lacking of that intellegence we have.

Thats why I only think normal people can be retarded...

because retarded to me, is when you use a very low amount of your possible intelligence.

And that's why I dont think there are really any dumb animals, because I don't compare them to humans...

whereas my cat is a fucking idiot in comparison to the other cats I know...because he seems to express much less in the way of feline intelligence...

2006-10-02 [Dil*]: Fizban, just cause' people get wrong results from using logic/reaon poorly, that doesn't mean logic/reason is flawed. Just that the person is stoopid :)

2006-10-02 [Fizban]: oh no no no...the processes are fine,...it is indeed the people that is the problem.

2006-10-02 [ceridwen]: So... Dil. you never answered my question. Would you consider my notion of god more plausible?

2006-10-02 [Franc28]: You just look for something to "put your faith" in. That's like a serial killer saying "well, I can't kill my family, so I'm gonna go out and find random people to kill." He does not question whether murder is good or not.

2006-10-02 [ceridwen]: Yes... and...? Your point is?

2006-10-02 [Franc28]: I'm just comparing your mentality to that of a mass murderer. Which in retrospect is not very nice, but I'm a jackass so...

2006-10-03 [ceridwen]: Heh... Well it doesn't offend me. Yes, it very probable that I'm wrong. Yes, I'm aware that it's all illogical, but that's not what matters to me. Am I like a mass murder? Sure. But I'm OK with that. So... you're comment was pretty pointless.

2006-10-03 [Fizban]: lol, no your not like mass murder. He was merely chastizing the form of logic you were implimenting.

I agree, although I am not quite sure, because I havent read everything you have written.

but I agree with the feeling that you need to have faith in at least something...

however, I dont agree with putting it into ~just~ anything.

2006-10-03 [ceridwen]: Lol... Yeah, I'm aware of that... But I was just pointing out that chastizing doesn't really get to me. I see no point in it.

Heh. Well, to be correct I'm not putting my faith in just anything. I'm putting it into a divine enity. An illogical, improbable, mostly likely contradictary, divine enity... but it's still not just anything. xP

2006-10-03 [Dil*]: Is it a crutch? Is it fear of hell? Is it fear of non-convention and discrimination?

2006-10-03 [Dil*]: sooo...new sections on intelligent design :)

2006-10-03 [kduncan]: I love the "Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian", I see alot of that where I live.

I have to speak out on intelligent design because they're going to be teaching it in the schools here. It's already common place for the New Testament to be handed out to fifth graders here.

I live in Florida. We rank in the bottom third in terms of scholastic achievement scores in the US. According to Morgan Quinto there are no southeastern states ranking in the top fifty percent, with all falling below 21 in scholastic achievement rankings by state.

When we have school Boards deciding to buy text books that teach "intelligent design" as a legitimate theory, despite the lack of any proof, is it any surprise that the southeastern US (commonly referred to as the "bible belt") ranks low in student achievement scores? The southeastern US also has the highest high school drop out rates in the US.

http://www.morganquitno.com/edrank.htm

2006-10-03 [ceridwen]: Heh... I think calling it a crutch would be the most accurate. I'm not afriad of discrimination. I dela with that as it is. And while I do fear hell a bit, believing in some god won't stop me from going there. So... I suppose it's a crutch. Or something like that.

2006-10-03 [Dil*]: Hmm, aren't friends and family enough for support? I'm just trying to understand theists...I don't get them at all. xD

2006-10-03 [Dil*]: Even some people up here in Canada support Intelligent Design. I've had a couple of disagreements with people. I was a bit of an ass, but I can't 'act' not stupified/shocked/stunned by people who don't believe in evolution.

2006-10-03 [Fizban]: OMFG, I love that statistics chart!!

haha, it gives states negative scores...hahahahah!!

less then nothing, they are intellectually detrimental...ha!!

I feel bad for you...

I think florida is like...one of the worst states...no offense to you ofcourse...

but its too hot, too humid, too many old people, to many dumb people, too many hurricanes, too many tornadoes, too close to the water, too many cockroaches,...and too many tourists!

and I am visiting it for the first time in the winter, if I can get over my fear of flying...my dad has a business meeting in orlando and he wants me to come with him.

2006-10-03 [ceridwen]: Lol. Florida isn't that bad. OK, well... south Florida is. But north central Florida (where I live) is pretty nice. We don't get the worst part of hurricanes, we have springs, and beaches nad tourists are far away. xP As for education, it's a hard thing to measure. I won't disagree that we don't have the best statistics, but part of that has to do with the government. They don't understand teaching and our damned legislature isn't making it any easier for us to have higher scores. And standarized tests don't accurately measure one's intelligance. Oh, and a lot about the schools and religion of the south depends on where in which state you happen to be in. It's not something that can be generalized and still be accurate.

2006-10-03 [ceridwen]: "Hmm, aren't friends and family enough for support? I'm just trying to understand theists...I don't get them at all. xD"

Oh... Don't use me as a standard. I'm probably not a good example. And no... friends and family aren't enough. They never have been (for me personally, mind you). I have to believe there is some higher power out there. Also... I feel I've had some spiritual experiences and I can't deny them. You may argue that it's just me being crazy, and while that may be true, I think it was interaction between a mere mortal (me) and a divine enity.

2006-10-04 [Dil*]: What kind of spiritual experiences?

2006-10-04 [ceridwen]: Well... There is this one time I can pin-point. I was actually at a church camp. I was praying, and of course, I wanted an aswer. But i didn't expect what I got. It was like god reached down and touch me. I was consumed with a euphoria like i've never before or after known. I knew his answer. My purpose was evident to me, as was the big plan for things. Granted, this high only lasted a day and a half, but still... I can't fully describe it to you, as a lot of it was emotion. But... I know something had happened.

2006-10-04 [Fizban]: very very very strange...

I have had several very strange coincidences that I have marked upon in my life, but if I look at them now with a different perspective I see how easily they can be just that...normal life wouldnt be normal if there were no coincidences...

however...that is very strange...for you I mean...

my best friends mom stood in the middle of a road arms outstreatched to heaven cause she thought she was talking to god...>_><_<

2006-10-04 [ceridwen]: Yes. It is quite strange. And... It's quite possible that it's just my mind, but I have a feeling, and choose to believe, that it was some divine encounter. >.<

2006-10-04 [Cliché]: You know I had a dream once in which I met god. I woke up in this bright white place, and a man in a white suit walked over to me.
"Hello, Julie."
"Am I dead?"
"Yes."
"Are you god?"
"Yes."
"Fuck."
Then I woke up. It was quite entertaining.

2006-10-04 [Fizban]: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

it's totally how one takes it I suppose...j

perhaps yoru subconscious is desperately trying to confirm the existance of another,...

while cliche's obviously suppports the lack of one.


Personally I think the body invents clever ways of keeping you sane so that you will live reproduce. 

2006-10-04 [Dil*]: hmm...no god experiences for me.

I've had some 'pure existentialist' experiences before. Kinda like transcending all emotion and caring. But they're really short-lived and usually followed by anxiety. It's like looking at existence completely outside of myself. Bizzare, maybe I shouldn't be so afraid when it happens..

2006-10-11 [kduncan]: Fizban says: "but its too hot, too humid, too many old people, to many dumb people, too many hurricanes, too many tornadoes, too close to the water, too many cockroaches,...and too many tourists!"

Hot and humid: Yes. Except in the winter depending on youtr location. Florida stretched some 700 miles from tip to tip, which is sort of like driving from the New York/Ontario border to Georgia. In north Florida we do have winter.. and even snow on occassion. The climate in north Flrida is very different from that of south (or even central) Florida.

Too many old people: Again, it depends om what part of Florida you visit. Gainesville (about two hours north of Orlando) has one of the lowest per capita median ages in the country. However, go about an hour and a half southeast, and you land in Brooksville, ie: retirement haven.

too many dumb people: I prefer the term uneducated to dumb. Again, it depends on where in Florida those people are. Miami Beach has a very cosmopolitan, sophisticated population, Gainesville is a university town, Tallahassee is the seat of state government as well as being a university town: won't find many uneducated people in those places.

too many hurricanes: Not this year. :D

tornadoes: Compared to where? Kansas? Oklahoma? Texas?

too close to the water: Well, parts, yes. In central Florida though, you might have to drive for an hour or more to get to a beach, I lived closer to the water when I lived in New York.

cockroaches: Yeah.. big suckers too. However, most of the roaches are American Cockroaches, not the German variety. They really prefer to be outside. The German ones are the bad ones -- and NYC is infested with them. So is the food service establishemnt you ate in recently.

tourists: I'm with you on that one. So if you;re planning on coming to Florida.. don't. Stay home. ;D

And that's the end of my "Florida" rant for the day.

2006-10-11 [kduncan]: Dil, the 'pure existentialist' experiences you had were what many people try to achieve through meditation. I can achieve that state at will, and go there from time to time to relax and just think.

2006-10-11 [Fizban]: lol, I would stay home, but hey, I have never been before, so why the hell not. My dad ~has~ to go, its not like its a family wannabe happy time. My dad is being sent on a business trip, and will take me along with him, cause he already took my other brother to...*sigh* puerto rico~!!

but thats okay, leaving the country is scary for me lol, but I would have loved it still, cause I could have taken the time to practice and play with spanish. *Sigh*

Compared to here there are more tornadeos. If you look on a map of hte usa It lists the tip of florida as a tornadoe hotspot...along with all the middle states, its relatively small but still,...we get a few tornadoe warnings here and now, you guys must get twice that...the middle getting quadruple I'm sure.

I know there were probably coakroaches in the chinese food store I ate at a couple weeks ago, but I really dont have a coakroach problem, because I live in upstate NY. Too cold for them to live outside, so they are basically inside only.

where as your suckers down there can live in the climate in and outdoors.

and yes, I am sure your ecstatic about the weaker hurricane season this year, rather then the HORRIBLE one last.

teaching people a lesson...ironic everyone is prepared for nothing, after being smashed and made to fear mother nature once again.

watch, people will become complacent again and drop there guard in a few years, and boom, hit with another hurricane that smashes them to bits.

2006-10-11 [Dil*]: [kduncan], it doesn't help me to relax. There's a gripping horror that follows. I think the fear is my sanity. The clutch, the safety rope that pulls me back.

2006-10-12 [ceridwen]: Last year wasn't too bad either... The year before that with Ivan, Frances, and Charlie was horrible though. >.<

Eh, Dil, I empathize. Coming down from such a high is horrible. Whether it be spiritaul or existential... coming back to reality is probably one of the worse things ever.

2006-10-12 [Dil*]: It's unexplainable. I can only describe it as a moment of pure existence. It's neither good or bad. It's just drifting. 

the moment it's short-lived. I am attempting to describe it, but it's as hard as describing Max Stirner's Creative Nothing.

2006-10-12 [ceridwen]: Eh... It's like me trying to explain to you why I still have faith and my mountain top experience. I try, but it can't really be done. Though... I've also had a sort of 'pure existentialist' experiences before. They scared the poo out of me. It was lovely and horrifying at the same time. Different than a godly encounter, definately, but just as hard to describe.

2006-10-12 [Dil*]: It's a state of mind, nothing so supernatural about it.

2006-10-12 [ceridwen]: I wasn't implying it was supernatural. Just... terrific. Like stepping out of ones self, but still aware of your body. Really quite odd, but fascinating.

2006-10-29 [Dil*]: [up date**] some logical proofs for the beginning of the universe.

2006-11-02 [ceridwen]: "We're in a unimaginably large universe, a speck upon a speck. I guess the only way to cope (for some theists) is to imagine a position of importance. You know what, we aren't important in the grand scheme of things. In 10^40 years, everything you see will be gone. We'll be less than a speck on a speck. Depressing? Well, that's reality."

Ah. A barb through the heart. xP

2006-11-02 [Franc28]: Anyone who believes this universe was made for man, or with man as a major concern, is very ignorant. This is not an insult but a simple fact of the matter.

2006-11-02 [ceridwen]: Oh, I don't believe the earth was created for humans alone. I was just teasing Dil for picking on theists. We don't all believe in creation by god because it amkes us important... It's a blame game. Something's wrong with the earth? Blame it on a god. xP

2006-11-02 [Franc28]: Well, I think feeling important is part of it. Christianity is pure hedonism. People want to feel comforted by their own self-importance, but also by other parts of it.

2006-11-02 [ceridwen]: Heh... Hedonistic, yes. Pure hedonism? No. If one truly adheres to Christainity as a whole, they restrict themselves from engaging in plenty of enjoyable activities. I don't think that' pure hedonism. And it's not correct to say that all Christains, but not atheists, want to be comforted their own self-importance. Everyone wants to be important, and copes with that in one way or another... So, in that respect, atheism isn't any better than Christainity.

2006-11-02 [Fizban]: Not only there own self importance, the concept of ego was the original motivating factor in my departure from the bible and everything to do with it. It says have tolerance, it says, yada, yada, yada...basically it's just a big game of ego. Feel bad for the poor infadels, and nonbelievers. God is white just like you, even if that african guy over there believes, don't worry, your still better then him. Your better then jews, and buddhists, and everything else, because your a wasp, or whatever denomination you are, because they all beleive in the same thing. That your on the right path, the up and up, your better, everyone else is worse off, you can feel supieror because you have that faith, where as everyone else, is just nothing, until they convert...ect, ect.

Ego is everything in the universe. Slaves are better then there masters because they are not cruel and evil, masters are better hten slaves, because the slaves are just dumb black idiots, unless ther not black, then they find other means to discriminate...
And the cival rights activists are better then all of them, because they feel bad for hte poor slaves, and thus, pop, they are supieror in that manner.

It's all about feeling, that your better then others.

Cold war? A huge ego trip between to idiot nations.

Holy wars, between the muslims and christians, spanning for centuries? Holy land yes...buy what? Oh, christians are greater, and thus the holy land is theres. Lol, I don't even know if the idea to ~share~ could ever be crossed anyones minds...
Why did the christians lose? Why, becuse the muslims didnt have the codes of the nights the christians employed, and thus...didn't fight like idiots out in the open...So christians blamed the muslims for being inferior morally, because the christians lost time and time again, to the supierior muslim war tactics.

Just, fucking, pride.

Why do people want better jobs,...money, sure...having more then other people.
Status quota...

political positions? The power and influence, sure...but also hte knowledge that you are "supierior"

IF we had no egos, and some motivation, communism would work.

but it didnt, becuase they had to make an elite group of communists, and the normals...still people were uncontent to not be able to be, supierior.

How does communism work in other places? Well, like cuba for example...has extremely competative sports,....I mean, they are REALLY REALLY into baseball.

Religouns are just a way to feel secure in life, and feel better then everyone else.

Your like a little kid in a club house, who wont let others in, unless they do everything you say. 

~So, fucking, dumb~

Thats us.

2006-11-02 [ceridwen]: Ah... ego is everything, yes. But self importance is not the reason for religion. Yes, religion is a crutch to make on feel secure, but not to feel superior to everyone else. In fact, religion tends to lower my self esteem because I'm never adequate enough...

Whatever. I know I probably won't win this agrument...>.<

2006-11-02 [Fizban]: Well, winning is irrelevent. It's a matter of opinoun.

Ofcourse you feel inferior, you are supposed to, because others are supposed to feel supierior.

Don't worry, you have too look in yourself, and you will see the ego. Catch yourself looking down at that 30 year old woman who is saying she needs to print her resume, when everyone around her knows she means résumé. Your grin at that guy that points to the occipital bone in your skull and asks if it is your artery.

Those are merely my latest two examples of my own ego. You start looking around, and don't worry you'll find it. I see ego is a huge concern to those with an extreme in that area. Those with low self esteem are constantly comparing themselves to those around them. Constantly going on and on about there supierors, and inferiors, there supierorities, there inferiorities. Trying to compensate for the imagined lack of something in themselves, with something else.

As though the only point in self worth, is to compare yourselves to others.

Those with big ego's are the same, always reassuring themselves that they are, inface better.

Those in the middle are average examples of both extremes mixed, to make the nice middle.


Myself, I try to limit myself from feeling supierior to closeminded idiots.

Becuase I have to remind myself, that the only reason they are as such, is because they were raised in an environment that could and did create such a person. Just like I was raised with parents and an environment that made me.

The losers are better then the preps because they are kind and moral.

Guess what happens, the losers lose there morality, there kindness when they become preps. Why? Because now they are popular, and pretty, and better, so they dont need morality...thats just for jealous losers who merely need and excuse to feel better about there pathetic selves.

All about the ego.

I prefer the, I am better then preps, because I wont even stoop so low as to become a prep, given the oppourtunitity.

But then you have to look to the preps and think. Hey, they were placed in an environement that cultures there ego in such a way. When your with a bunch of people, who think there better then everyone else, then guess what...your going to end up doing the same.

Try living in a house where everyone does drugs. Where your mother waitresses all day, and pole dances all night. And your big brother picks you up from school after he sells all his weed. Although, if he is late, maybe he will pick you up, and then sell some weed before they get home. Where the little shirt your wearing was bought with crack, from your moms boyfriend, and you father is in jail for 20-life for doing some drug related bullshit.
So like I was saying, (this a particular argument for self-righteous arrogant assholes) Try living in that house, and never trying or doing drugs. Never getting involved with them at all...when everything from the rent for the crappy apartment, to the clothes on your back are from drug money,...when your life revolves around crime.

When you grow up from day one in an environment like that,...and survive it and come out just the way you are,...then you tell me, that your better.


Those types of things. Don't feel better, feel lucky that you were raised in a way that you feel positively towards.

That stupid guy from math class,...dont feel better then him...if he was given as much attention, read to as a child, happened to be in an academically enriching environment..then maybe he would be getting A's

if your parents didn't push you so hard...then maybe you would be getting C's.

2006-11-02 [Fizban]: DAMN!! I wrote alot!!

2006-11-03 [ceridwen]: Yes, you did stray, and wrote a lot. I got lost. I felt like I was being lectured... And I don't ned to be. I understand I have a pretty decent life, I just create drama because I'm a whore like that. xP

Oh, and how is winning irrelevent? You argue to win, not to lose...

2006-11-03 [Franc28]: You completely missed the point. I never said that atheists don't like to feel good. All I said was that Christianity is pure hedonism. I do like to feel good, but not at the expense of my own worldview, my own moral autonomy, my loyalty to the truth and to my friends. I am not self-demeaning enough to be a Christian and seek emotional relief through such base means. I have far better means to feel emotionally fulfilled.

2006-11-03 [Fizban]: Winning irrelevent becuase I argue to learn, not to compete. If I wanted to compete I would be on the debate team...

which I would be anyway, but we don't have one...either way, thats irrelevent.

2006-11-03 [Dil*]: You know, before I invited franc I was the strongest atheist on elftown :P

Ah, franc takes no prisoners.

2006-11-03 [Fizban]: I wasn't even talking abotu that. I never said atheists were any better or worse, I was ranting purely on the subject of religoun, but morely on humanity. Which is obviously all encompassing irrelevent of gender, race, and religoun.

2006-11-03 [ceridwen]: Geh... I know Fiz wasn't talking about atheist being any better or worse. Franc and Dil both said something to that effect. >.< I still got lost about what he was talking about, though. xP

Christianity is not pure hedonism. While there is Christian hedonism, it is not pure hedonism. And what's so wrong with hedonism? Pleasure over pain... really not all that bad. To be a hedonist, you don't have to sacrifice your own worldview, moral autonomy, or loyalty. Is it possible that to be a Christian does? Yes. That's not to say that it is pure hedonism. Being a Christian causes one quite a good deal of pain, which most are taught to take joy in. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that's pure hedonism.

2006-11-03 [Dil*]: You don't know what hedonism is...hedonism is valueing self-importance and pleasure over all else. All else includes moral autonomy, loyalty and truth.

2006-11-03 [ceridwen]: Ah, there I go again. Making an ass out of myself. >.<

Heh... Hedonism still isn't all that bad to me. Morals, loyalty, and truth aren't all that important... Though, I don't think I could lead a life of pure hedonism myself, I don't find it to be a bad lifestyle.

2006-11-04 [Dil*]: Morals, loyalty, and truth aren't all that important

That's pretty terrible, how do you get through the day... I couldn't live with myself if I was like that (no offence meant...but I don't know how else to put it).

2006-11-04 [Franc28]: "Heh... Hedonism still isn't all that bad to me. Morals, loyalty, and truth aren't all that important... "

Your average Christian, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for your frank honesty. If I ever get asked again why I am an anti-theist, I'll have someone to point to.

You are a sad individual.

2006-11-04 [Cliché]: Wait, wait, wait. I'll admit I mainly don't care about everything you talk about. I grow weary of the atheism vs theism argument. If I want it I can just walk around my town, but hedonism doesn't sound christian at all, from what I can tell.

2006-11-04 [Dil*]: Well, I <3 you to death, but this is an atheism page :P

2006-11-04 [Cliché]: I know that, I was just wondering why Franc said that was an average christian thing to say.

2006-11-04 [Dil*]: Because Franc is a rabid atheist. Basically.

I don't entirely agree with Christianity as pure hedonism though, some aspects, definately, but the charity type things..they don't seem like hedonism to me.

Moderate christianity would be hedonism...though.

2006-11-04 [Cliché]: But, I thought christians were all about the guilt.

2006-11-04 [Dil*]: there's alot of hedonism behind 'the creator of the universe cares about me.'

2006-11-04 [Cliché]: Mm..I suppose it is a bit arrogant to think that god has your life planned out for you.

2006-11-04 [Dil*]: or gives a shit.

2006-11-04 [Cliché]: Yeah.

2006-11-04 [Dil*]: moderation, you still get to do whatever you want, just suckup a bit and you think you'll have a one trip to paradise at the expense of any sound logic.

2006-11-04 [Cliché]: Okay, so maybe I was wrong.

2006-11-04 [Dil*]: you're half right...because not all aspects of christianity are hedonism, franc would grossly disagree with me though, of course.

2006-11-04 [Cliché]: Of course. Mah, it doesn't much matter to me anyways.

2006-11-04 [Fizban]: Ceridewin, are you sure you meant to say that, like that?

Hedonism is a life of selfish pleasure, usually at the expense of something, or someone else.

Morals aren't as important as being selfishly self pleasured?

thats what you just said, are you positive thats what you meant?

2006-11-04 [ceridwen]: "Your average Christian, ladies and gentlemen."

The only problem... I'm no Christian. I've come to despise Christianity, as most religions, though I tolerate and understand them. By no means am I the picture of an average Christian.

... And yes, I'm sure that's what I meant. Now, I would love to be able to say I adhere to that idea, but I don't. There are no absolute morals, for its all relative. Most morals aren't one's own, but what one has been taught and adopted. They restrict one from fully enjoying life. There is always a cost. Morals vs. Pleasure... I think Pleasure wins. But... that's just me.

2006-11-04 [Franc28]: How do you even look at yourself in a mirror in the morning? Have you rationalized your way into accepting this attitude as a normal way of being?

It's thanks to people like you, who have no moral compass and don't care about truth, that evil flourishes in the world. You make me sick. I will not bother you any further, but I hope you reconsider your attitude towards life in the future.

2006-11-04 [ceridwen]: "Now, I would love to be able to say I adhere to that idea, but I don't."

Yeah... I would love to put pleasure over morals, but I don't and can't. I'm still impossibly human, and I have a part of me that doesn't want to be a monster. That part wins out.

Oh... and I look at the mirror in disgust and wonder why I allow myself to live. So, I'm not perfect. Oh well... >.<

2006-11-04 [Dil*]: Franc, do you consider yourself a moral person?

I do, but I also know I could be doing a lot more. We're all on a similar wavelength in a way. I mean, our problems are so trivial. 10 000 kids die a day of starvation, yet all we seem to care about is are own trite problems. I think, all of us, living in modern society, is morally bankrupt to a certain degree. We have no desire to give anything up for anyone.

This bothers me alot. That's why I was in a human rights group for a little while. That's why I'd support crazy things like voluntary human extinction movement (which does have a moral highground). www.vhemt.org (live long, die out), if we can't take care of the kids already alive on the planet, why the hell should we make more?

2006-11-05 [Cliché]: Darlings, if you want to meet a monster look no farther. I happen to be one. Morals are relative, what's right for you may be wrong for some, and vice versa. Truth is a wonderful thing, and it is because I am so brutally truthful that I am both distrusted and hated. Lies are kindness. Loyalty is great, if you're loyal to the winning side. Otherwise you're just loyal to the bad guy. If you switch sides the side you switched to calls you a hero, the side you left calls you a traitor, if you stay on one side the other side calls you an enemy. I hate humans. September 11th happened...I didn't care. If it does not touch my life, I don't give a fuck. My next door neighbor died, and I've known him since I was 3, but I didn't even cry at his funeral. Best part of all of this? I don't hate myself. I may not like myself, but for all my monstrocity, I think I'm just fine. Of course, that's not to say I wouldn't be perfectly happy if humanity just died out right now, taking me with it.

2006-11-05 [Fizban]: Oh my my Franc...you in this instant remind me soo much more of a radical Theist then Ceridwen, or anyone else around here.

Self righteous arrogance, egotistical domineering.

You believe yourself to be so much higher, so much greater then miss ceridwen over there? 

I will make no accusations as to your personal life, I leave that to you alone.

But I think Ceri has a very good point in being so honest.

We all like to think of ourselves as moral, but in reality, I would be willing to bet that not a one of us is more moral then selfish.

When Ceri says morals, I don't beleive she is talking about huge things.

The little things.

If your so much more ~moral~ then ~pleasure~...then why aren't you out there doing everything you can to make the world a better place or somethin of the sort?

What are these morals that you beleive overcome your selfishness so completely?

That evil flourishes in the world?

Cliche, Ceri, I respect both of your for your blunt acceptance of who you really are.

Personally, I think those to whom are deluded are far more responsible for evil flourishing in the world,...lols.

2006-11-05 [Cliché]: Oh, I cry for fictious characters too. Just not real people.

2006-11-07 [Dil*]: You know what's not okay? Christianity. I think I've developed a further loathing of this particular one. The concept of hell offends me in the same way as neo-nazis saying jews should be exterminated offends me.

And yet we listen to it, without any reaction at all. This type of barbaric thinking should have been discarded centuries ago.

2006-11-07 [Dil*]: I feel part of me caving in almost, I've never been good at containing any sort of hatred, but this thing is trying me. It's gotten to the point that I have actually taken a bible and put post it notes in illogical barbaric sections. I don't want to be a stronger atheist, but I can feel the pull of it.

2006-11-07 [Pyra]: Breaking moral codes since 1989, and loving it. ;P. What of us who belive there are several goddesses, that have mild involvment in the lives of Humans, but are still open to the idea that those goddesses/gods might not even exist?

2006-11-07 [Dil*]: agnostic spiritualist/pagan.

2006-11-07 [ceridwen]: Post it notes, huh? I'd love to see that. xP

2006-11-07 [Fizban]: I have given up enteirly as well. Give in, do it. You know you'll feel better when you tear a theist bible dependent to pieces in an argument, by quoting there bible against them.

2006-11-07 [Franc28]: "Franc, do you consider yourself a moral person?"

Yes, of course. Who doesn't? The real question is, am I lying to myself or am I right? I do know that people like the young hooligans on this page who reject honesty and truth are the future criminals in our society. That's just a fact.

2006-11-07 [Dil*]: Everyone lies and is selfish to a certain extent. I can't see you claiming any highground here.

2006-11-08 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: So what is harder? To say "I'm no worse than you because we're all terrible" or to say "I admit that I really am no better than animals" or to say "I admit that I am worse than animals". The Christian does the last. We say (and yes I am a Christian) that we are worse than shit. We (humans) royally, of our on free will, spat in God's face and said "Fuck you. You're not that Great and I can be just as good." At least the other things that God created (say invisible pink unicorns ;p ) and such didn't do that. ... so yes. We believe that we deserve eternal torment. We do not believe that our religion makes us any better than anyone else... in fact the more we grow in grace the more we realize how sinful we are. we rest in Christ alone. I think that that trust, that leap of faith, is the hardest thing of all. Because technically (if you think about it "logically") We are giving up the "pleasure" of drugs, excessive alcohol, premarital and gay sex, and the like for...what? The promise in some book that some guy 2000 years ago died for our sins? Who the heck could believe something so stupid right?

*puts up hand* me. I believe. I know that God exists. Not because I can prove. beyond a shadow of a doubt, that He does, but because I know Him personally. I see His work and guidance in every aspect of my life.... I wouldn't be here talking to you if I wasn't sure.... funny how that is...

However I do understand what you're saying. I hate moralistic hypocrites just as much as you do. The problem is that the opinion on Mass Christianity is based on... the entire population that claims to be Christian. A great deal of them, however, are not living how a Christian is supposed to live. We are all still sinful and so we still fall short. However it is not for us (Christians) to point at the "heathens" and say "YOU SHALL ALL BURN AND DIE" we are called to love our enemies, as well as our friends... and can you honestly hate us when we do that? 

2006-11-08 [Dil*]: You have just enterd the strong atheism page. Franc and Dil live here. Oh well. Enough said, there were warnings at the top.

Nobody is a true Christian and chances are, if there is a hell. I'll see you there :)

*takes out the bible*
Read Luke 18.22-25 It says you need to sell all your possessions to go to heaven. Nobody sells all their possessions and donates it to charity, nobody.

John 11.53-54 (eat the flesh and drink the blood of jesus and you will go to heaven. Eat flesh and drink blood? wtf? Now...the only way you can defend this is by spewing a bunch of metaphorical gibberish)

Luke 14. 26-33 (so you have to hate your family to become a disciple of jesus..okay...right...)

I can hate a person's belief system, but that doesn't necessarily mean I hate them.

2006-11-08 [Franc28]: I am definitely claiming the high ground. But it doesn't matter since I don't watch this page any more. You can argue with these hooligans instead.

2006-11-08 [Dil*]: If you're going to claim the moral highground, then argue for it. Scratch that, I'll be PM you.

2006-11-08 [Fizban]: Oh, see, many ideas behind Christianity I agree on, due to that.

What someone would say was a true Christian, is what your saying. But I left christianity, after a nice look at some of its history on this earth, and those around me and was like...

sorry, every Christian I know condemns me for being gay, something that I tried for years, upon years, to correct before I even understood fully what it was.

As though I choose to rob someone, or murder someone,...I was despised before I even knew the definition for the affliction I face.

I used to have that same ideology,...looking on everything as though it had some purpose, some meaning, that god was trying to teach me something, here and there. Showing him/her/itself in certain ways. Thinking, the whole reason it's not easy to see god's existence in this world, is because it was just another one of those methods to weed out the non-beleivers, and the like.

Sorry, the only role models I have for Christians are my brother and father. Outside of my own family, I have never seen a positive Christian role model. Only hypocrites. (well, them and my high school bus driver, lol XD)

I am better then you because I believe in this, that, him, her, it...blah, blah, blah, ect...was the message I got from the whole religoun scene.

Rules like..."if you don't believe in jesus, but your a buddhist, Atheist, Agnostic, Jew, Muslim, transcendental, Taoist, Pagan, Shintoist,...the list goes on far too long from what beleifs I know, and don't know...who sacrificed his or her life to save an entire group of people from a bomb, murderer...or for a less hollywood example, a mother who saves her daughter, by jumping in the way of an attacker on the streets of manhatten...

Go to hell.

Some buddhist who was raised with the ideal that believing anything about that wierd christain thing is bad,...rejection from his family and friends, who live in a very traditional town and place, at the hands of converting to some american/european religoun he/she had hardly heard about.

Goes to hell.

Hell, a concept that has been used as the "Eat your peas or the boogey monster will get you" Moral enforcer for the supposedly utterly ill of morals.

That concept, whether true or false, presents itself as an obvious point in which mass social control could readily, and easily occur. "Do this or you will face something far worse then your nightmares could ever dream up, till the end of time.

As though this life is nothing but a process of weeding out corrupt souls or something.


When I look upon the world...I see someone raised without belief, without much of anything. Clothes bought from crack and weed, shoes brought from the man who stank like beer who came over the other night, and went into the mothers room with her, and didn't come back out till many sounds issued from the paper thin walls of the run down apartment complex.

What will happen to that child? Who when he grows up, will be far more concerned with surviving, then anything else, such as who is jesus, what does that mean to me.

Who, if he was raised by some other family, he would have been raised in an environment where such a thing wouldn't have just been vaguely possible,...but probable, and a nurturing environment for such a person to exist.

The latest theory on the nature of how people become gay, is that evidence shown that when the lining of the uterus is worn down, from births, it can't filter out as many of the things that come from the mother through the umbilical cord to feed the fetus. One such thing that coincides with an old and answered question is how mothers can bear children with contrasting blood types. An ~A type carrying a ~B blood typed child, is possible. Well, antibodies and blood can get through, mix, and the current studies are showing that sometimes it causes the hormones necessary for proper physical development, particularly of the brain get skewed.

Thus, it shows how someones hormones go and determine your sexuality, when functioning normally, a girl is with a guy, and vice versa.

The more the hormones were screwed up during the developmental stages, determines the difference from, bi-gay-transvestite, and whatever. Obviously, the extremes of having an interest in the same sex, to wanting to be the other sex, that is supposed to be interested in your same sex.

Either way, main point, current science indicates that the more children you do have, the more it is likely that you will have one who has a sexuality or gender change or dysfunction.

Does that mean if my brothers were never born, I wouldn't be gay/Wouldn't have to go to hell?

Lol...what a funny idea, yes?

2006-11-08 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: Way to miss-quote.

The passage from Luke is when Jesus was talking to a wealthy young man. In short. Christ was saying that if you put more weight on your possessions, if you love them more that you love him, than you will not be able to go to heaven.

The passage from John is referring to the Act of the Lords supper. We celebrate the Lord's Supper until Christ's return. Christian's (other than Catholics) reject the idea that the bread and wine actually turns into Christ's body. It is a sacrament. Nothing more. A way of remembering... just like the Israelites celebrated the Passover. That feast was a foreshadowing of Christ's ultimate sacrifice...and so The Lord's Supper takes it's place. Christ was (and I know you hate this) speaking metaphorically. Unless you are covered by His righteousness then you will not be saved.

The second passage from Luke is similar to the First. If you will not follow Christ because your family doesn't like it... than you too have no place in the Kingdom of heaven.

No one said that Christianity was easy...

2006-11-08 [Fizban]: *my post is so long, I don't even want to read it...XD*

2006-11-08 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: I agree that being born gay is possible. But that doesn't make it natural. People are born with down syndrome... does that make down syndrome good? No. And we try to correct it. Being gay, I believe, is something that a Christian with homosexual tendencies can and will struggle with for his or her entire life. But I do think that it sometimes is a choice. I could easily feel "horny" for another girl... but that doesn't make it natural. It doesn't make it right. Being a Christian and having to struggle with that is one of the hardest things a person can go through. I believe that everyone who condemns and humiliates these people are horribly wrong. It is better to treat them with love than hate. I refuse to hate them/you. Because of something you technically couldn't change. But each and every one of us deserves hell. A strait person no less than the homosexual. "There, but for the grace of God, go I" I feel compassion for you...but that does not mean that I acquit you. That is not my job. God alone can judge. I can infer from Bible texts that practicing and unrepentant homosexuals will be condemned. But until the final day of judgment the fine points of that have yet to be seen. Technically all of us humans besides Adam and Eve couldn't "help" sin. However we are all still born and conceived in sin. ...one sin would be enough to condemn the whole world. So the "I was born with it" may make me feel compassion... but it does not let you off the hook...you are still responsible.

On a side note... I wonder how long before they find out that a tendency to child porn, and rape is the genetics's fault as well..

2006-11-08 [Fizban]: That is completely un-fair.

Actually in my college sociology class, they determined that most rape doesn't even have to be committed by those who are of psychotic state of mind. It's not that hard of a thing for people to do at all in general.

Therefore, genetics is another level of things that we wont even take the time.

Well, what is the meaning of natural? Look at animals...there are gay animals. Is that not natural?

Is having a 6th finger natural? The gene for it is actually dominant over having 5, what does that mean? Does that mean one more finger is unnatural? Or not?

How can you say it is, or isn't natural?

2006-11-08 [Cliché]: This whole natural vs. unnatural thing makes no sense in our world. Everything around you is unnnatural. You're computer is unnatural, you're clothes are probably polymer blends. The food you eat is no longer fully natural unless you eat orgainic. Everything in our world is no longer natural, so whether something is natural or not has no merit. Oh, and that 6 finger thing? That's a mutation, those are one of the few things left that is natural. Kinda like pot.

2006-11-08 [Dil*]: I am very tired.
but here's a little something to giggle about:

"In heaven, all the interesting people are missing." - Fredriech Nietzsche

Hell:
Leonardo Da Vinci
Nietzsche (heh)
most philosophers
most people
albert einstein (agnost)
bill gates
dawkins
darwin
carl sagan
most rock bands

Heavan:
like 1% of the populance
hitler (he was a roman catholic)

2006-11-08 [Fizban]: Huh...well, the lava bath will be horribly painful, but I will get a great conversation out of it, XD.

2006-11-08 [Dil*]: I own, and you all know it! XD

2006-11-08 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: lol I give up. Actually a great amount of Poets were Christian.

oh & btw "Faith without works, is dead" Therefore...those who claim Christianity and obviously don't live according to Christ's word...are not saved. A huge part of Christianity is Sanctification...which is: being made more like Christ. Once you are covered by Christ's blood you will automatically desire to be more like him. If there is reason to believe that a person is not growing in Christian virtues than it is probably safe to say that if that person continues down that road than that person will to go to hell. And most Roman Catholics do not believe in Christ alone (aka they pray to Mary and other such saints) and so put there trust in those who cannot save them...

lol but I'm seriously going to shut up now. I'm not doing much good by pissing you off. But if anyone has actual questions...and they aren't just trying to make me feel like an idiot... well then feel free to ask. :)

2006-11-08 [Fizban]: I was never trying to make you feel like an Idiot. Those weren't practicied anti-christian questions I had up there, these are questions that I have problems with being an ever increasing agnostic christian. Things I honestly want to know...because if they were different or clerified...

but like I said...the bible ruins god, therefore, if such biblical things are not explained, I can't do anything but seperate the two, in an ever increasing doubt in god.

I am one of those people that wants to do that whole, believing thing...

Unlike dil* lol XD...she apparently needs nothing XD

2006-11-08 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: Alright Fiz. I'll answer your questions as best I can. Because of the fall of Adam and Eve every person is conceived and born in sin. Christ was the only one..and that was only because he was at the same time true God.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
because that which is known of God is revealed in them, for God revealed it to them. For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse." (Romans 1:18-20) "for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves,
in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them." Romans 2:14&15

2006-11-08 [Fizban]: question, what happened to all the people born before jesus?

2006-11-08 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: Before Jesus came there was the covenant of works. Aka. "love and fear me and keep my commandments" Those who did and loved God, had contact with God. (ex: Noah, and Enoch, Job (we do not know whether or not Job was a Hebrew. It merely states "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job. That man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God, and turned away from evil.Job 1:1 ) ) The Hebrews were God's chosen people...and we cannot understand why. But Other people were not necessarily excluded. ex: Jonah was sent to Preach to the people of Nineveh (see the book of Jonah) However through this they had "easier access" to God. "Then what advantage does the Jew have? Or what is the profit of circumcision?
Much in every way! Because first of all, they were entrusted with the oracles of God." (Romans 3:1&2)

However this is not all Paul, a Jew says "What then? Are we better than they? No, in no way. For we previously warned both Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin." Romans 3:9 Being a Jew does not save you. It does, however, make you more accountable.

"Or is God the God of Jews only? Isn't he the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith, and the uncircumcised through faith." Romans 3:29-30

God will also take into account the knowledge that the unrepentant had. "That servant, who knew his lord's will, and didn't prepare, nor do what he wanted, will be beaten with many stripes, but he who didn't know, and did things worthy of stripes, will be beaten with few stripes. To whoever much is given, of him will much be required; and to whom much was entrusted, of him more will be asked." Luke 12:47

All in all we cannot know exactly How God will judge those before the time of Christ because it is not revealed to us in scripture. However we can know that God will deal with them according to His justice. "But of His Son, He says, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and for ever, and the scepter of Thy Kingdom is a scepter of absolute justice." Hebrews 1:8

2006-11-08 [ceridwen]: Heh... Christianity. I have the same problems with it as Fiz. I understand Sanctification, the opportunity for salvation, etc.. I just have a problem with the whole "You're gay, so you go to hell" mentality. I didn't chose to be attracted to females, nor has it ever felt unnatural to me. Secondly, I do tend to be somewhat hedonistic (though it's often more trouble than its worth)... I don't understand why one would want to deny themselves for a god that isn't benevolent. Two people messed up, creating original sin. So... we all have to pay for their mistakes? It just doesn't add up in my mind. And I've been taught that god only created mankind to exalt himself. Pretty selfish, eh? So... we should worship a selfish god just because he made us, and then saved us, because he was bored? Yeeeaahhh...

2006-11-08 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: Not bored. Merciful. Adam and Eve were created perfect...so even if we were given the same chance we too would have fallen.

And you are making the most common mistake when it comes to viewing God. God is the creator. He is the author of everything beautiful..his glory is infinite...and he has defeated sin and the Devil.. And so He is worthy of all praise.

2006-11-09 [Fizban]: Author of everything beautiful?

And author of everything evil, ugly, and terrible.

He is the author of all, all is from him. So I dont understand if he created everything, how he didn't create evil.

2006-11-09 [Dil*]: He made the devil. Silly.

"A claim put forth with no proof requires no proof to dismiss."

2006-11-09 [Half-Mad Poet]: Very interesting. well, though a rather different subject, how would the argument of free will be argued under god? It is rather implied that a firm belief in such an entity would also confirm a belief in determinism.

2006-11-09 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: Ah! Awesome! Ok.. I'm studying that next week in catechism... so I'll get back to you with that answer

2006-11-09 [ceridwen]: Lol... I asked this guy who was filling in for my youth pastor about predestination and free will... He couldn't answer me. xD I always ask the hard questions.

2006-11-09 [Fizban]: Good. No one should ever have a faith/belief that they just sit around, don't question it, don't make sure they know everything and agree with it. Just having a faith because its what your family believes in or something is stupid to me.

lol...

2006-11-09 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: I agree. I struggled a long time with many of these beliefs. It's only in the last year or so that I truly began to understand. I have been doing a crazy amount of studying too.... there's just so much to learn!

2006-11-09 [Fizban]: Right, so did you ever answer that question about what happened to the people after adam and eve but before jesus?

2006-11-09 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: yup. It's under the actual question.

2006-11-09 [Fizban]: Oh I just thought you were naming good christians prior to him or something lol.

[Before Jesus came there was the covenant of works. Aka. "love and fear me and keep my commandments"]

Who made such works?

2006-11-09 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: what do you mean "made"? Do you mean "who made the law?" If so...the answer is God. God still spoke directly to the people before Christ. And if you mean "who kept the works?" Then that would be the people of God.

2006-11-10 [Fizban]: who ~wrote~ that.

still the "people" of god?

2006-11-10 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: The covenant of Works is found in the books written by Moses. Aka :Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Dueteronomy...in fact it's found in the entire old testament. However the people still had to love God. The people of God are those who love him and keep his commandments. "(Jesus said) if you love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:25)

2006-11-10 [Fizban]: A bunch of people that could easily have started and all controlling cult, right? Spread like wild fire.

Or not, who knows.

2006-11-10 [Half-Mad Poet]: in all actuality, it was not to difficult for Christianity to spread.

and there was more to it then just take over by force, and playing on hopes. much of it was the assimilation of pagan ideals and the like. now, as you all seem like rather knowledgeable fellows, i am assuming you already know of the core holidays and the like, but i am even speaking of the resurrection as well. it was easy for most if not all pagans to belive such a thing, as most of their religions featured figures (whether heros or deities) that had died and came back.

Norse mythology, Balder is slain by his brother (an accident) and is said to return after ragnarok.

The Osiris-Horus myth of resurrection has more then one parallel to the Christian resurrection, horus being the son of osiris but being him at once.

Dionysus in Greek tradition, who at been killed as a child and reborn, placed by zues into the womb of a woman (also parralleling to the virgin birth).

these are only a few examples and.

once the creation of a parrallel myth was formed, it was  believeable in context to other religions of the time or recntly passed, and may not have been to hard to convince others that their legends were merely mistaken for jesus.

a bit off topic mayhap, but an interesting thought.

p.n.
HMP

2006-11-10 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: Very true. It shows that even the pagans new the promises of God.. even if they did get warped over time

2006-11-11 [Half-Mad Poet]: or, a more logical point of veiw, the christians adopted a common myth in hopes to convert a larger number of followers.

2006-11-11 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: Nope. The story of the resurrection is what gives Christianity it's glory. "13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised.

14 If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, and your faith also is in vain.

15 Yes, we are found false witnesses of God, because we testified about God that he raised up Christ, whom he didn't raise up, if it is so that the dead are not raised.

16 For if the dead aren't raised, neither has Christ been raised.

17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins.

18 Then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

19 If we have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable."1 Corinthians 15:13-19

2006-11-11 [Dil*]: *yawn* There's no way you could prove any of that, it's just another myth, just like all the others that have existed.

I've already pointed out some fatal flaws in the 'jesus' story.

2006-11-11 [Half-Mad Poet]: no worries, i think she very much just proved my point.

"The story of the resurrection is what gives Christianity it's glory"

it is exactly the resurrection that has given Christianity its glory, the "story of resurrection". it is the unifying principle within all denominations of Christianity, without it Christianity would have fallen apart. The basis of the religion. why? at its creation, it was the strongest point, it was something that everyone could relate to by legends and myths they had been raised with, but deviated from the familiar, and was tied to a person that had been alive, that many people had heard of and/or seen. Add the martyr aspect to Christ, and find something that preys on the basic hope of mankind. the idea that someone was willing to die so we don’t have to, that we no longer have to fear our own sins. 

and that proverb is made of fear based questions, using the illogical fallacy of emotional appeal.

It is trying to use a form of logic to convince us that god must be true.

 

13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised. =
If there is no resurrection, Christ could not have been resurrected

14 If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, and your faith also is in vain.
                  If Christ was not resurrected we are wrong, and you are wrong

15 Yes, we are found false witnesses of God, because we testified about God that he raised up Christ, whom he didn't raise up, if it is so that the dead are not raised.
   So, we are false

16 For if the dead aren't raised, neither has Christ been raised.
If you cant raise the dead, Christ couldn’t be raised

17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins.
      If Christ wasn’t raised, your faith is vain, if your faith is vain, you still have sin


18 Then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
So, if that is true, then those who believe in Christ are also doomed

19 If we have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable."1 Corinthians 15:13-19

If it is only hope that leads us to Christ, then we are pitied.

So then, it is using fear to say that if resurrection did not happen Christ could not have been raised. If Christ hadn’t been raised then we are fools for believing so. If we are fools, we are wrong. If we are wrong we have not been forgiven, and therefore have sin. Therefore those who believe In Christ will perish. If we only have hopes, then we are only worth pity. Few want to believe that they are wrong, even fewer want to believe that they are stuck without forgiveness. None want to belive this, so they just assume that the first premise is wrong.

Sorry about the simplifying of principles and quotes, it is not that I doubt any one’s intellect, I just fear missing a valuable point. To argue without grounds if not worth arguing.

2006-11-13 [H3_six]: Not wanting to get into any excruciatingly complicated arguements here, but your page is very interesting [Dil*].

2006-11-13 [Dil*]: Thanks.

2006-11-13 [Dil*]: Quote Ecnarf:

"You wanna know what's fucked up?

The concept of Jesus.

God sent a part of God to something God created to sacrifice a part of himself to himself to change a rule he made himself."

2006-11-13 [Fizban]: HAHAH!! nice...I am stealing that and putting in my diary if you don't mind ;)

2006-11-13 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: It's not out of fear that we worship Christ... it's out of love. But in a certain sense..yes. Christianity is a crutch... but a much needed one. Without it there is no hope and life isn't worth living with it. And despite all you can say you will never convince me otherwise... and despite all I say I can never convince you. ..I leave that in God's hands.

2006-11-14 [Fizban]: well, you believe its out of love. But that doesn't mean many don't do it out of fear of hell. I mean, even if someone didn't love him...he isn't exactly saying that just because you don't love him, doesn't mean your exempt from his divine fury ect...

2006-11-14 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: I don't quite understand that last sentence.... but in response to the quote that Dil posted. That is actually a false concept.

The concept of Jesus. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

2006-11-14 [Fizban]: I don't understand how that disproves dil's idea?

2006-11-14 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: It isn't "God sent a part of God to something God created to sacrifice a part of himself to himself to change a rule he made himself."

He didn't change His rule. God's justice was satisfied through Christ...not negated. It was not this illogical way to satisfy His boredom.He did this because He loved us before we were even created. He created us, knowing that we would fall, but willing to send His only Son, so that we could be with Him.

2006-11-14 [Fizban]: so then the statement is changed to

God sent part of god to something god created to sacrifice a part of himself to himself to ~fufill~ a rule he made himself.

Thats what you edited.

2006-11-14 [Dil*]: He sacrificed part of himself to himself to 'revoke' the old testament rules, the ones he made up in the first place. Clear?

2006-11-14 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: He never "revoked" anything. Man sinned. And Man suffered. Christ suffered the eternal torment that we deserved. God did not simply say "Alright...I've changed my mind" He said "I accept my Son in your place. And for His sake I will look at you as if you had never sinned." It's not the same thing

2006-11-14 [Fizban]: then my last message is all that is changed. God still sent part of god to someting god created to sacrifice a part of himself to himself to fufill/deal with/fix/override/take that rule that was made.

2006-11-14 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: Yes. He did. What's your point?

2006-11-14 [Dil*]: That makes no sense whatsoever! He's supposed to be omniscient and 'intelligent', intelligent beings don't fuckup. And since god's word is 'perfect', he should not be changing it in the first place.

1. God is perfect
2. God's words are perfect
3. Old testament is god's word.
4. Old testament is perfect
5. :. old testament should also be obeyed
6. Nobody obeys old testament because it's barbaric and evil
7. :. Xian god is an evil god.
8. :. nobody wants to obey the evil god 100%
9. Only partially obey 'the word of god'
10. Out of fear of fictional places of torment.

The end.

2006-11-14 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: . For point # 5. The old testament laws other than the ten commandments were not the basis of the covenant of grace. They were based on the covenant of works and were meant to point to man's sinful nature and the need for the coming Messiah. When Christ came and died those ceremonial laws were fulfilled and so they no longer need to be obeyed. The ten commandments need to be obey...because they formed the basis for everything else.
Yes the Bible is perfect...however our understanding of it is flawed.
  Finally. No matter how hard we try, we can never merit our salvation. Even if we never ever sinned we would still be sinful because of the fall of Adam and Eve. Salvation has nothing to do with "Oh! I have to do this or I'll be condemned! ARGGGGG!" When the Holy Spirit works in your heart you realize that apart from Christ you can never be saved. You will always fall short. The fact that he was Willing to die to save the most horrible of sinners is what makes Him so incredible. He would have been perfectly within His right as creator if He just let us all "burn and die" and yet in His mercy He saved us.

And I know you find that revolting...but that is where our world views collide. You do not believe that man is totally depraved in his natural state...and so cannot comprehend the need for judgment...and I can't convince you of your need for a Saviour....only The Holy Spirit can. And he is able. Don't doubt that...

You want to know how I can love God?
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB8YkGNxizk>

2006-11-14 [Dil*]: The story of Adam and Eve makes no sense whatsoever either. Why punish the entire human race for it's predecessor's mistakes? That's like arresting a child of a criminal who has otherwise done nothing.

"When Christ came and died those ceremonial laws were fulfilled and so they no longer need to be obeyed. " - can anyone say human sacrifice ritual? in which god sacrifices part of himself to himself?

2006-11-14 [Half-Mad Poet]: to go back a few posts, i will have to say that hope is nothing more then wanting to see something a certain way without having any indication such a way is true or even possible. in truth "Hope is the denial of reality". now, this is not necessarily saying that all hope is wrong (or bad) it is often what gets many people through the day, just that it must be accepted for what it is: a belief without basis in reality.

... i suppose it is much like faith, eh?

p.n.


p.s. Scarlet, compared to other people i have debated with about the religion problem, you do seem to be far more knowedgable and capable of producing an argument. While i do not agree with you, i do respect your ability.

2006-11-14 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: lol Dil... look at it this way.
Say a woman goes and has unprotected sex and she gets aids. She gets pregnant and passes on the disease to her child. That child will suffer because of her sin. Fair no. But that's just how it works. Look at it this way. Sin is a genetic disease.

And thanks. [Half-Mad Poet]. I am trying to "give an answer for the faith that is in me. So I'm glad that it's working...though you shouldn't give me the credit. I wouldn't be able to do it without Christ.

And yes. Hope is much like faith. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Heb 11:1)
" “For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:24-39

Truly some of the most comforting words of Scripture.

2006-11-14 [Fizban]: Yeah, I have to concur with half mad here. No other Christian supporter has been able to argue with challenging excerpts from the bible nearly as well. Your prepared ;)

I personally, can only reflect that with, the idea that perfection and fairness go hand and hand. In a perfect world, there would be no un-fairness. Why would god then make such a perfection within us? The only one holding us accountable for our forefathers sins, is god.
Why don't we have to repent for our mothers and fathers sins then, if we have to repent for adam's and eve's?

But that analogy you just made, does give me a better understanding. Lols...

2006-11-14 [Half-Mad Poet]: well, you agree then that christianity is a crutch.

so then, we will both be able to agree that a cruch is a tool?

2006-11-14 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: Yes. But in the sense of Christianity, The gospel is not crutch in that we make it up for ourselves. The belief in Christ's saving work is what gives us hope...

2006-11-14 [Dil*]: God knew adam and eve would mess things up for all of us, and he made it that way. The xian god is an evil god. 

2006-11-14 [ceridwen]: Ha. Scarlet, I applaud you. You know your stuff. Just like I did at one point. Then I got sloppy due to my lack of faith. xP

I wouldn't call the xain god an evil god, but he's not perfect. Humans, by means of the arts and whatnot, do the same thing. We have a vague idea of a plot, then we use characters as our pawns, all in amusements sake. The xain god is slightly sadistic I think, but more importantly selfish. We're taught being selfish is wrong. The xain god created humans fore the sole purpose to bring glory to himself. If that's not selfish, I'm not sure what is.

2006-11-15 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: alright... if anyone other than God said "I'm going to do this to bring glory to me" Than we would say( and rightly so) that they are selfish. But God is... God. He created us and so is worthy of all honor and glory. Every time we give glory to something else, we are taking glory away from Him.

2006-11-15 [ceridwen]: So the same morals that apply to humans don't apply to god? So... he can do whatever the fuck he wants, but we have to do as he says?

Yeaah... That makes sense. {/sarcasm}

2006-11-15 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: No... God is the standard. God is perfection. What may seem like selfishness to us is within His devine right as the creator. God cannot contradict Himself...however He can do all His holy will

2006-11-15 [Dil*]: That's idiotic, so he created us to worship him...wow! Only a human could think of such a stupid thing to do.

2006-11-15 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: *sighs* The reason that you hate this... is because you hate the idea of God more than anything else. I believe this because I believe the Bible. The Bible says that God is Holy and therefore incapable of any sin... and I cannot and will not believe otherwise.
" 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, "
(Romans 9:13-23)
You insist that because we cannot understand the aspect of God that it thereby must be evil. But God is infinite. If we understood everything about Him than He wouldn't be infinite and so wouldn't be God! We humans hate the idea because it goes against our very nature. (Our very sinful nature) We do not WANT God to be righteous and holy because then we will be help accountable. And therein lies the rub

2006-11-15 [Dil*]: God directed the bible, that is another circular arguement, 'I do no evil because I say I do no evil', that kind of arguement is a laughable one.